God is not on a power trip.
Why does God want us to obey Him? So He can prove He’s “in control?” That He’s “da Man?” Why then, is “the fulfillment of the law” LOVE? (Galatians 5:14)
The Law does not state “you shall wear green on odd Thursdays”. They are not pointless, endless laws to obey with no purpose. The law of God was obviously not established for the sole purpose of bending us to His will, although He very well could have made it that way. He is all-powerful, our Creator. He can do whatever He wants. If His only goal was to control us, then the Law would be random. But it isn’t. Even the laws and commands that made no sense at the time (washing hands before you eat? WHY?) make sense in the light of retrospection. NOW we know why it’s important to have clean hands before you eat, even if the scientific data to support that was another few thousand years in coming.
Look at God’s command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Do we think God was doing a trial run for human sacrifice? Do you think Abraham had ANY idea why God would possibly want Abraham to kill the son God had so miraculously blessed him with in his old age? Why would God do such a thing? Abraham didn’t question God’s purposes, though. He just obeyed. In light of the New Testament, however (thousands of years later), we can get an inkling of what God was thinking with this command to His faithful servant. We realize, with a giant “AHA” moment, that God knew HE would give up HIS son as sacrifice for US, because He loves us so much. He wanted to know that some one of His creatures would sacrifice as much for Him. God did not caprciously order Abraham to do anything. There was a purpose. And that purpose was LOVE.
I feel like our time here on earth is essentially our infancy, to prepare us for the “adulthood” of a “new Heaven and a new Earth”, which we are gifted to partake of through our Savior’s sacrifice. Our lives here are but a training ground. God is our Father, and just as an earthly parent sets down “the rules”, so does He. Our rules as a parent aren’t random, though. They’re designed to mold our children into thinking, moral adults. As such, we allow our children to make mistakes, and suffer the natural consequences of those mistakes. Not that we don’t WANT them to obey us every time, and that we couldn’t MAKE them obey us every time. A good parent, though, knows when to back off and let the child experience for themselves the consequences of their own actions, in order to learn the lesson well. To prepare them for making the right choice the next time. To prepare them for being an adult. We don’t leave them alone. Even when they’re making a bad choice, we’re in the distance, watching, making sure they don’t fall too far to get seriously hurt. We’re saying to them “remember what I taught you!” We’re prompting them, guiding them. But ultimately, we let the child old enough to make a right decision the opportunity to MAKE that decision. “I taught you to wear a coat outside so you don’t get cold. Now that you’re 10 – if you don’t wear your coat, then…. Get cold!”
Why do we allow our children to make choices, even when they are BAD choices? Why do we give them FREE WILL? Because we love them, and we want them to love us, and we want them to learn to eventually become the people we want them to become. A parent who makes every last decision for a child ends up with an adult who is incapable and weak. Our God is no less of a parent to us.
I feel that there is a fear out there that if we say we have the ability to make a free choice in our response to God, that it means somehow that He is not in TOTAL CONTROL, and that it belittles His power. This is not true in the least. Man has the ability to make something that he totally controls - he has the intellect and power to make a robot. It obeys a man's every command. TRUE power and genius comes from creating something that can think and feel and reason for itself. Man hasn't even come CLOSE to the genius of the Father.
He allows us FREE WILL, not because He CAN’T control us, but He chooses not to – for Love’s sake.
19 comments:
I just go back to Hebrews 12:5-11 though. We should be thankful when God disciplines us. He is loving us like a father loves his Children.
We may allow our children to make mistakes because we love them, and we want them to learn from their errors. We usually don't let them run into traffic however, or jump off of cliffs. To do so would not be love.
Ephesians 1 says "In love he predestined us" God's definition of Love is radically different than the human definition of love.
One of the better explainations for the flavor of God's love in predestination is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgT8G_EaDZw
I would say that we do have a choice. It is just 1, that we choose badly, and 2 that our choice is subservient to God's choice. After we choose badly, God is Gracious enough to redemptive change our hearts. God's ability to change hearts is the source of great hope. There are many folks who will never choose God, barring a miracle. But thankfully this is a miracle that God is quite happy to perform regularly. Our prayers for the conversion of unbelievers are not dependent on stubborn man, but a loving and merciful God.
Hebrews 12:11 "At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it." That's saying EXACTLY what I am saying. Yes. Absolutely. God is our Father, and he is training us to be holy. He disciplines us, He guides us. And sometimes, He lets us make mistakes. NOWHERE in there does it say that God COMPELS us to obey Him. Not that we don't have rules to follow. We do. But that He doesn't physically move our hands so that we follow those rules. We have the choice to obey the rules or not. We may make our choices, and then live with the consequences (God's discipline is a consequence no less than a natural conseqnece).
Where you see hope in predestination, I am afraid for those that see utter despair. "I am not one of the CHOSEN ones, so why try? I am PREDESTINED TO HELL, so why try? I am one of the 'chaff' for the fire." I also see the framework for elitism and exclusion("I AM one of the chosen few, and they are NOT"). This is not HOPE to me. If we see all our bretheren as fellow sinners in need of Christ, we can pray for the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives - not that they or we can "save them", but that God can. YES. And God changes a person from the inside out. Absolutely. God is knocking on the heart of every one of His children - sometimes more loudly than others depending on His purposes. But it is up to the individual to make the choice to let Him in or not. God doesn't force Himself on anyone.
Ephesians 1:11 - "In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will, so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped in Christ." God has a plan, and a purpose. And He choses those He wants for that purpose. I think of Jonah... God said "GO", Jonah said "No!" Over and over. God didn't COMPEL Jonah to be obedient (by taking him over and not allowing him the opportunity to say 'no'), even though He punished him enough that it changed Jonah's mind ;).
"God's definition of Love is radically different than the human definition of love." In the bible, there are two types of "love" - "Agape" love, and "Eros" love. Agape is God's love - defined as divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Your video talks about Jesus pursuing us, rather than vis-versa. Absolutely YES. He pursues ALL of us - not just the "select few". Some He pursues more loudly and persistently, according to His will. The "free will" comes when WE stop, turn, and say "oh, there you are Jesus. What do you want of me?"
One last comment - I know I'm overly-verbose about this stuff ;)...
In the video, he gave the example of forcefully grabbing his daughter from an oncoming car in order to save her life. I don't doubt that God acts that way in our lives on occasion. But by saying that's how God works EXCLUSIVELY, you're also saying that for some of His kids, he goes ahead and knowingly lets the car run over them, and I can't even remotely believe that as true. God would not predestine any of his children to Hell. He would not say "hey you! I will save YOU, but not HIM." He wants all of us. That is why He is a "jealous God". He wants us for Himself. ALL of us.
Well, double predestination is quite a debatable topic, and I am not sure I would hold to that. I am not sure that most Calvinists would hold to that. Calvin never taught that God predestined people to hell. I believe that God makes us and we are Holy and good. Jesus refers to this childhood innocence in Matthew 12:8.
We, by sinning, we choose our destination, not God. Nobody chooses to follow after him. Life is a gift from God. The fact that he gives it, does not obligate him to later give a further gift of eternal life. If he where obligated to save, it wouldn't really be a gift at all.
In my study of the book of John I was struck by how little Jesus pursued the Pharisees. Aside from Nicodemus, he really didn't pursue them much at all. He told them the truth, the let them take it or leave it. I believe that the truth is there for all to see, and our hearts are either hard or soft to it. (Romans 1:18-21) It seems like a really good idea that God pursues everyone, but I don't know that it is all that biblical. I do believe he makes himself known, and he calls all to repentance.
As far as the video goes. It really depends on weather you believe in total depravity or not. Most Christians on both sides seem to accept that doctrine. In fact Joseph Arminius taught this doctrine. There is just too much biblical evidence for it to discard it. If you believe that all go astray, then it takes an act of God to bring them back.
But the good news is that God does save. A God that can change hearts is going to be much better at saving than one that ties his hands and refuses to change hearts. I believe the Bible indicates he does change hearts - we are new creations. He gives us a new heart and a new spirit (Eze 36:26). I am glad he does.
AAHHH.... so here we find that really we're talking about semantics, and that our true understanding is actually very similar. If there's not "Double Predestination", that means that God chooses some people, and the others (like the Pharisees) hear the message but CHOOSE NOT TO ACT ON IT. God is calling EVERYONE, but WE are rejecting HIM, because He allows us (not that He doesn't WANT us to, or not that there isn't consequences for) the opportunity to choose. That is what I'm calling Free Will. That God allows us that choice. The parable of the seed and the soil - the seed is planted in the hearts of everyone, but depending on the nature of the "soil", the seed will grow, or not. The fact that we are in charge of the "soil" is what I consider Free Will. There really is no such thing as "double predestination" if you believe in predestination. They're the same thing. There are only two places to go... up or down, so to speak. So if you're saying that we have no choice in the matter, and God says who goes up.... then where does everyone else go? The answer, unless you believe that we DO have a choice in response to God's calling, is always "down". I'm gathering that you DO believe that people have a choice in their response to God's calling, but the ones He REALLY wants, He will change their hearts from the inside to be open to Him. I don't deny that in the least. But He is knocking on everyone's door, and Calvin is very specific about "limited atonement". You have to be 'elected' to be saved, which absolutely means everyone else is 'elected' to be damned. Whereas I believe that Jesus died for ALL our sins, it's just we who REJECT that gift - never that He rejects us. Because God gave us the Free Will to reject or accept Him.
Total depravity of Man - it's true that nearly all (as far as I can tell) Christian religions believe in the sinful nature of man. Our church believes that that's not how God CREATED us (why would He create something whose very nature is to run screaming the other way from Him?) but that we BECAME that way of our own doing during the Fall of Adam and Eve, because WE rejected GOD by disobeying Him. Free Will - our choice to reject or obey God. So the guilt of evil is on our shoulders, and all of humanities. It HAS to be that way, we NEED that guilt, in order to need the savalation Jesus offers us. If God CREATED us sinful from the beginning, even before the fall, then it was HIS doing, and the whole plan of salvation is just an elaborate ploy, and has nothing to do with the love He has for his children.
St. Augustine has an interesting way of looking at this thought. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm He said that before the fall of man, Adam and Eve had the ability to make the choice to obey or reject God, and the ABILITY to obey God fully, because God made Adam and Eve perfect and "good". After the fall of man, we have the ability to make the choice to obey or reject God, but lack the ABILITY to obey Him due to the fallen nature. After Christ's sacrifice, because He was the "new Adam" (the one who did it RIGHT this time), we have the ability to make the choice, and the ability to fully obey God WITH HIS HELP.
From what I have read, St. Augustine did hold to a Double predestination stance..
Generally the more we talk these things out the less difference there is. It usually comes down to a chicken and egg argument. I think there is a tendency to paint Calvinism as being a hopeless and merciless theology, when truthfully because of who God is, it is the exact opposite.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is just too powerful and clear for me to believe that God is not in control. Especially when we couple that with John 6:37.
Both theologies limit atonement. the Calvinist limits it's scope while the Arminian limits it's effectiveness. I think we can both agree that some folks are going to hell. I trust God more than man to decide who. I think John 6:37 makes it fairly clear that he doesn't leave the matter to chance.
I see two theologies that both imperfect models, with an element of truth in them. I see free will sitting very comfortably underneath God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty just doesn't fit under human will. From our perspective we are free. We are responsible. But nothing that we can do will foil God's plan. Nothing that we can do will surprise God. He has placed a mission in front of us - To be ambassadors of reconciliation. He knows where we will succeed and where we will fail. We can be confident in the victory of his plan in the end, no matter how unprepared or overwhelmed we feel. He knows what he is doing, and we are privalaged to be part of it.
"God wills all to be saved: (1 Tim 2:4)
The human will is never ABOVE God. Never. And God ALWAYS has control - if he chooses to use it. NOTHING is outside of his control. But sometimes, God chooses to be permissive, rather than acting actively. God's will can be divided into two different kinds of will, the active and permissive. The active will is that which God chooses to happen - which always does. All things God actively wills are good. The permissive will of God is when he allows things to happen, although he does not desire it, - and thus he allows evil in order to allow us freedom.
And absolutely God decides who is and is not going to hell, and we really have no say in that matter at all. Salvation is a gift we certainly don't DESERVE. I'm saying that God doesn't WANT anyone to go to Hell, but He is a just God, and if we deserve punishment, He is going to give it to us. He has to. Because He is just. Again, "God wills all to be saved: (1 Tim 2:4). If He wills all to be saved, and we both agree all are NOT saved, then.... how do you reconcile that? Only that God is acting permissively, and allowing us the choice to reject Him - even though it's not what He wants for us. Not that we have more say in the matter than He does. But He is permitting us a choice to respond to His call, because He GAVE US THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE HIM. It's all from Him to begin with... not of ourselves.
And you're right - He uses it all for His purposes, and nothings going to stop it. Certainly not us mere humans. I agree with you wholeheartedly. :)
I so appreciate that you're willing to discuss these things, Josh. Not many people will! It seems like in this country we have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion, but the biggest thing we're afraid to speak freely about is religion!
Here is my problem. Human choice is fickle. People will buy anything. (Even Snuggies) People tend to make their decisions selfishly. Anyone who bought a Snuggie can be awed by a smooth talkin' preacher into buying a ticket to heaven.
If they can be talked into that, they likely also can be talked into the next self serving thing to come along.
If you look at the American Church, you will see this everywhere. Very consumeristic. Very "Serve me". Very tolerant of Sin.
But the conversions in the Bible where transformational. I think of Acts 19:17-19.
Now those kinds of transformations do take place.. But those should be the rule, not the exception. I listen to a lot of preachers, and In my experience it is the Calvinist preachers (John Piper, Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney just to name a few) are the ones who invite people into a radical transformation. They teach even the difficult texts. They shoot straight and don't sugar coat the tough parts. They trust God to draw people (John 6:44) And in spite of their brutal and unapologetic preaching, people still come. They come in droves. And they leave changed.
It is awesome. It is all God. No other explanation suffices.
So here's my thought about that ....
How do people come hear those preachers? They came to one of their talks, they CLICKED on the You-tube video, they were curious because someone else suggested them. They OPENED THE DOOR when Jesus knocked - even if it was a crack to see who was on the other side. From there - YES! Let the Holy Spirit flow and work and transform. No one is denying that it is God who transforms us from the inside. That our decisions tend to be self-centered, and only with the help of God can we even begin to walk the straight and narrow path. THAT is not what I am debating. Because I agree with you 1000% on that. My argument is - God did not magically transport those people to hear His message, although He certainly could have. He didn't. He was probably nudging at their hearts ("Hey YOU! I want you to go hear this guy. Go click on that you-tube link!"). And in response to that urge, we humans might say "Hmmmm, I wonder what this guy is all about...." OR "I'm too busy for this stuff. I really don't care". Fertile soil or rocky soil. They're ready to hear it, and have the seed grow in their lives, or they're so completely turned off that they are essentially covering their ears and going "NANANANANANANANANANA" to drown it out. God urges, we respond. And it doesn't take much of a response from us at all - just to open the door a crack, and then He takes it from there. We're not making the whole journey to Him on our own by ANY means. He just wants to see the tiniest inkling that we're open to Him. That's it. The mustard seed is the smallest of seeds, but grows huge. But my point is... He waits for US to open the door. It HAS to be this way, because of who God is. He gives US the choice to accept or reject Him (even to the slightest degree). And from there, He takes over. Without that choice, we have no GUILT, and sin cannot be explained, and the fall of man cannot be explained, and the Gospel message cannot be explained in any rational way. And God is logos. He is pure logic. Pure love. What He does makes SENSE. It has to, because He is God.
And ultimately, God wishes ALL TO BE SAVED. It is His WILL. And Jesus died for the sins of all. Because God wishes ALL TO BE SAVED. If God punishes us to hell because He is just and giving us what we deserve - we can't say that's because God didn't WANT us. Because the Bible explicitly states that "God wills all to be saved." THAT'S the crucial difference between predestination, and preknowledge/omniscence. God knows what we're going to do before we do it, and plans things accordingly so that His will is done... BUT that doesn't mean He doesn't allow us to make the choices we make. Not that we come to Him completely on our own - you're right. We're not capable of that. But that we OPEN THE DOOR OF OUR HEARTS to Him, and let Him in, so He's with us the rest of the way.
Maybe the difference is between the thought of conversion as a radical, one-time act (which is certainly CAN be for some people) rather than a journey (which it tends to be for many MORE people). So to say that we, along the long journey, constantly choose God from our sinful mortal nature without His help - yes. Completely untrue.
I believe in progressive sanctification. God tends to call us to repentance one issue at a time.
I found Kevin DeYoung's explanation of "The will of God" quite helpful. He suggests that there is 3 different flavors. There is God's Decreed will - This is what will inevitably happen. This is the will that cannot be foiled. There is God's will of desire - This is the way that he would have things if everyone was obedient. "He wills all to be saved" for example. It is pretty clear that although he wills this, he has not decreed it. The third kind (Which is irrelevant to our discussion) is God's will of direction.. We pray to know which school God wants us to go to for example or what breakfast cereal to eat. (DeYoung dismisses this, suggesting if we have faith in the first two, the third is redundant and rarely revealed)
As far as the Guilt goes, I think the point of Romans 1-3 is that we are all guilty. Romans 2 is clear that even the religious folks are guilty. Romans 9:30-33 shows that even those who pursue righteousness stumble, while those who don't receive it.
I don't think we disagree at all when it comes to human responsibility. We all choose to do what we want to do. We are all responsible for our actions.
I just think we are better off to understand that salvation is a Miracle. (Matthew 19:25-27, Ephesians 2:8) If we think that the reason for our salvation was a choice that we made, then it becomes about us, And it becomes a stumbling stone. Our faith is in our decision, not in our God. Our salvation only has as much power as our trust in that decision, not as much power as our trust in our God.
So really, the only difference between our positions is that I believe God deserves the credit for opening the door. - Sending an ambassador with the words the Spirit chose to open your heart. When he is the one who won you, you can have confidence that he is the one who will keep you. He is the one who will discipline you.
It is uncomfortable knowing that some people will not be saved, but that discomfort remains no matter which theology you adopt. I still think that more people will be saved with an intervening God than a non-intervening God. I believe that the scripture clearly indicates that he can and does intervene.
Here is a great clip from Tim Keller on this puzzle:
http://download.redeemer.com/rpcsermons/QandA/What_is_the_doctrine_of_Election.mp3
I think he and I line up pretty well, and he says it better than I. ;-)
"Our faith is in our decision, not in our God. Our salvation only has as much power as our trust in that decision, not as much power as our trust in our God."
I think you are characterizing my position as one of God's being "hands off" and that is not true in the least. God intervenes. We just have the ability (because He GAVE us that ability) to cooperate or not with His will. So it's not "I choose God, so I'm saved". It's "God is calling me, and I am HEEDING HIS CALL". BIG difference. Huge.
I reject the whole "Arminian vs Calvin" debate as the onset of these opposing views. That was in the 1500's, and that is a DROP IN THE BUCKET in terms of salvation history. Go back farther. MUCH farther. Judaism. "Jews may use the term omniscience, or preordination as a corollary of omniscience, but normally reject the idea of predestination as being incompatible with the free will and responsibility of moral agents, and it therefore has no place in their religion."
Then go to the early church - those first Christians with direct ties to Jesus, direct ties to the apostles. "The early church fathers consistently uphold the freedom of human choice. This position was crucial in the Christian confrontation with Cynicism and some of the chief forms of Gnosticism, such as Manichaeism, which taught that man is by nature flawed and therefore not responsible for evil in himself or in the world. At the same time, belief in human responsibility to do good as a precursor to salvation and eternal reward was consistent. The decision to do good along with God's aid pictured a synergism of the human will and God's will. "
The first inkling of this idea of predestination is Augstine, (a prior Manichee, I might add), and his position changed over the course of his life. "While his early writings affirm that God's predestinating grace is granted on the basis of his foreknowledge of the human desire to pursue salvation, this changed after 396. " This change in his stance was not without controvery..."Augustine's position raised objections. Julian bishop of Eclanum, expressed that Augustine was bringing Manichee thoughts into the church[6]. For Vincent of Lérins, this was a disturbing innovation.[7]"
So, then wait another 1200 years, ignore the first 10,000 years or so of Judeo-Christian thought, and bring in Calvin. Well, maybe start with John Wycliffe a hundred years earlier. Either way. I don't buy it, because it doesn't make sense. Jesus did not die for the few. He died for the many. And the only way you can reconcile the thought that even though Jesus died for the sins of ALL, and not ALL are saved, is that WE CHOOSE TO REJECT HIS CALL. Salvation STARTS with the heeding of God's call to us, and then we journey hand in hand with Him, as He leads us the way to Him. He grants us the grace to proceed towards Him. We certainly don't have the ability to make that journey on our own.
One final analogy, and then I'll leave you be....
Your kids are being held for ransom. One of them WILL die. The evil kidnapper looks at you, and says "OK. You decide. Which one do I kill?" You LOVE your kids. How would you possibly decide which one to kill? Well, take the youngest, because the oldest one can help me around the house more? Take the oldest, because the youngest one obeys better? You couldn't make that decision as a father, because you LOVE your kids! Realistically - what would YOU do? I know what I would do as a mother. I would say, as I know the majority of parents would say "take me instead. I'll die for them both. For ALL of them."
And that's exactly what Jesus did.
An excellent summary on our varying viewpoints:
CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED
Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.
Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.
Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.
Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.
Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.
Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.
Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.
Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.
Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.
Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.
Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.
Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt
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